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Polyaspartic 2nd coat

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al caserta's picture
al caserta

If sanding and recoating first coat of polyasparttc with 220 grit, vac &  wipe w/ alcohol or zxylene too eliminate little needle holes / blisters can I use a heavy weight padco bar and a woven pad? I know your suppose to use lightweight for first coat. Let me know if I am on the right track and how hard is it to eliminate those little needle size blisters. I ribboned out and magic troweled then back rolled in 2 directions w/ 18"purdy  1/4 inch nap soft woven roller  cover. One more ? Is 6hrs. min a good time to sand, temp is now down to under 50 in garage.

Thanks in advance 

Al

Dr J's picture
Dr J
Re coat time

Hi there: to re coat the pap, if you lay down another layer you do not need to sand/grind as long as it is applied within 24 hours. My question to you is about the pinholes in the first layer. I suspect you may have installed the pap a little on the thick side. You should just roll out the pap, not spread with a magic trowel. Too thick will trap air in the pores instead of allowing proper wetting out. Could this be what happened in your case?

Dr J's picture
Dr J
Re coat time

Hi there: to re coat the pap, if you lay down another layer you do not need to sand/grind as long as it is applied within 24 hours. My question to you is about the pinholes in the first layer. I suspect you may have installed the pap a little on the thick side. You should just roll out the pap, not spread with a magic trowel. Too thick will trap air in the pores instead of allowing proper wetting out. Could this be what happened in your case?

Dr J's picture
Dr J
Re coat time

Hi there: to re coat the pap, if you lay down another layer you do not need to sand/grind as long as it is applied within 24 hours. My question to you is about the pinholes in the first layer. I suspect you may have installed the pap a little on the thick side. You should just roll out the pap, not spread with a magic trowel. Too thick will trap air in the pores instead of allowing proper wetting out. Could this be what happened in your case?

al caserta's picture
al caserta
Thanks for the response, Not

Thanks for the response, Not so much pinholes but little needle size bumps. I back rolled with 1/4 roller  2 directions after intial magic trowel. Sanded (220 grit orbital 6" sander) them down and tried the padco heavy wt. bar w/ woven pad and had same problem. I might of  sanded a little on the early side 12hrs. after, but I was told I can sand after  6hrs the poly coat.  When I wiped w/ denatuted alcohol the rag  wasn't gliding like when I wipe the epoxy coating. could that be the problem? should i have used xylene instead?  I think i should of just waited but needed to cut some wood in my gargage the next day and didnt want airborne dust for topcoat. Temp. mid 40s in garage at time. Gets better 12 hrs after 2nd coat I kneeled on the floor seemed hard but i flattened out the finish.  data sheet says light traffic after 12hrs. had fleece sweat pants on. Should i micofiber mop a wax coat and call it the day? Is it usually that hard to get a good finish w/ a polyaspartic? data sheet say can be applied in -20F degree. I was told the needle size bumps were from the temp.  That does make sense.  This is in my shop a demo pad. Everything took a long time. My salesman is learning as am I. I'm assuming concrete floor temp. has to be a min. of 50 degrees not the air temp. for the epoxy coats. air temp was mid 50s to 60 for epoxy coat but floor was cold. In Cleveland ohio it has been cold up here. Against my thought i listened to my salesman and put a torpedo heater in there and got it up 95 degree and that blistered the prime coat. Oh well better to learn at your oen house!!!

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
Polyaspartic (PAP) that is

Polyaspartic (PAP) that is formulated to dry/cure at -30F means that the air and substrate/concrete temperature must be -30F or higher.  At temperatures of 70-75 the PAP will dry in 30 minutes to 1 hour, at which time you can apply the 2nd coat "without sanding" (creating fine dust particles that can become airborn). 

The window of time to apply 2nd coat without sanding (using a fine sanding screen on rotary floor machine) is up to 24 hours.  Your first coat of PAP should be tightly rolled, take care as to not overwork it (you can pour out in ribbons, use a Padco lightweight t-bar/floor applicator to get it out quick, immediately tight rolling with a woven/shed-resisant roller specifically for epoxies/urethanes/PAPs); in doing so you are forcing the PAP down into the substrate, displacing air in pores, and assuring that it has wet out/penetrated/locked in. After this 1st coat has dried, you can apply all subsequent coats with 18" roller (suggest 5-6 mils in order to have adequate build as well as enough material to self-level)

What you may be seeing (needle size fine bumps) may be dust that entered into the air when you sanded your 1st coat (again "you don't need to sand the 1st coat unless you have gone past the windor of recoat time, typically 24 hours; instead apply 2nd coat either within the window of time/24 hours or when the 1st coat is dry 30 minutes to 1 hour later). Fine dust particles brought about by sanding can attach to walls, ceilings, etc. then fall back into the new/2nd coat of PAP and take on a very micro pinhead/bump like appearance. 

If applied property PAP will self-level out, with a smooth as glass like, highly light reflective appearance. (no micro-bubbles, no tiny pinhead bumps, etc).

Of course "no all polyaspartics are created equal" (be it their wetting out/penetrative self-priming, temperature range they can be applied in, dry time, length of time required to return them to service after drying before returning to service can range from 3-4 hours up to 16-18 depending on the formulation you are using, windows of time as to applying subsequent coats after the 1st coat has dried in relation to whether sanding is required or not, etc).

It is not as much heat, as it is relative humidity (degree of moisture in the air and/or on the surface).  If the substrate was cold and you had heated the room that high of an ambiant temperature you could have created a sweating/condensation on the floor (I'm sure you have seen concrete surfaces sweat from hot/humid air and cold concrete substrate); PAP's when coming in contact with moisture will be prone to tiny pinhead bubbles.

al caserta's picture
al caserta
The only reason I waited

The only reason I waited 12hrs to sand was to try to eliminate the tiny pinhead bumps in my first topcoat finish. The humidiy was low and temp was at a constant for well over 24 hrs prior to topcoat. The high heat was to try to dry the prime coat only which was kept on for 3 hrs.  Used space heaters thereafter and air temps. were around 60 degrees for  2 days while working w/ the epoxy coats. I lowered the heat to right under 50 for the topcoat applications. The denature alcohol wipe after sanding felt like it was sticking. Is that normal or was it not ready for sanding 12hrs. after. HP Seal-krete is the system here in use.

Thanks for your time and wealth of info,

Al

GrindandCoat's picture
GrindandCoat
if your humidity was low you

if your humidity was low you probably didnt need to use you space heaters, a few years ago i put down a floor in an area that i heated up with space heaters, it caused more problems to me more than enything else, had pin holes all over the prime coat, was a 100% solids epoxy, i dont understand the science completly but i was informed be my supplier that doing such things can cause your concrete breath out, breathing out causes the pin holes, maybe someone else can shed more light than me but all i know is that i never have used a space heater again and i have never had problems. tryng to control the enviroment to give best tempretures is just simply to difficult.

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
The heaters bring up the

The heaters bring up the ambiant air temperature, this expands the air in concrete (like a balloon) that with the air axpanding up/out of the concrete.  When the concrete substrate itself is cold (internal and surface tempeature) and the ambiant air tempure is warm it set up a rising of moisture/vapors driiving them to the suruface as well; ergo, tiny pinhead bubbles (outgasing of air and moiisture).  This is onle of the reasons that when applying sealers/coatings on exterior surfaces (be they water or solvent based acrylics, urethanes, PAPs, etc) that you need to do so either the coolest part of the day or when temperatures are going do (not when they are rising iat the hottest time of the day).

al caserta's picture
al caserta
I guess I can go along with

I guess I can go along with that, but why didn't the metallic coat of epoxy do that. Furthermore only kept 1 space heater on after metallic coat was done which brought temp. down almost 10 degrees. The epoxy coat had a real nice shiny finish with no tiny anything in the finish!

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
Did you look at this with a

Did you look at this with a magnifying glass?  What do you see ... tiny/micro bubbles that created sort of pimples like image; or, very fine dust that settled down into it from the atmosphere (ceiling, walls, etc that had dust from sanding on them).

Heavy weight woven Padco should not have been used; a lightweight woven is the one typically recommended by PAP manufactures ... don't think this would be the cause for you're issue; but, its possible.

Typically tiny bubbles are brought about by moisture on or in the surface, mixing at to high a rate of speed inducing air into the batch, overworking the surface, substrate outgasing, or some sort of solvent that has not had adequate time to evaporate up/out of whatever the previous coat was. 

Denatured alcohol is ethanol, (usually 95% alcohol/water), with trace amounts of methanol, methyethylketone, and isopropanol added (< 3-4%). Water being, the "key word," which if any degree of this water remained on the surface bubble in PAP would be prone to occur ... ergo, the denatured alcohol may have been the root of the bubble issue.W

WWW      (((       

Lindy 

al caserta's picture
al caserta
Thanks, for the replies.

Thanks, for the replies. Being as cold as it was it might have been the denatured alcohol didnt fully evaporate.  It was late and wanted to get it done so I could use my shop in the morning, Lesson learned. Why can't you use a heavy wt. bar for the second coat. It suppose to be thinner mill. Won't  a light wt. bar  leave it too heavy?? Just my opinion.

 

Thanks again

Al

LegacyIndustrial's picture
LegacyIndustrial
Aliphatic Urethane

Why did you topcoat with  PAP?

You can't drive on it for 5-7 days( assuming a garage job) anyway.

Might have been better off just applying an aliphatic urethane, less cost and very good looks.

 

Don't get me wrong I love PAP and will be releasing a "One Day Floor" video next week using it but we try to recommend it as a time saving product and tend to keep it with itself vs. using as a topcoat with epoxy.

 

Interested in your reply OP.

 

al caserta's picture
al caserta
HP Seal-krete metallic floor

HP Seal-krete metallic floor system is sold like that and it was a demo floor in my garage using there product. I was under the impression that PAP is the most durable top coat out there (chemical and scratch resistant). With your 1 day floor you might be able to put it down in a day but if temps. are cold when is the earliest you can drive on it. I slightly kneeled on it 12 hours after and slighly flattened the gloss finish where i kneeled. It was hard to the touch and was suppose to handle light traffic after 12 hours.  Does the top coat cure out faster if its an all PAP system, or would I have flattened the top coat  finish 12 hrs later as I did?

Thanks for your imput  Al.

Dr J's picture
Dr J
Dry times

I can only comment on the Flexmar system, which I have used. Middle of January 2 years ago, minus 10 C out. Started at 8:00 in the morning, double garage floor. Prepped the slab by 10, laid out my base coat by 12, which included 2" coving all around. Put on spike shoes and broadcasted vinyl chips. Let dry1 hour. Scape and vacuum up any extra chips. Rolled out a gloss top coat, all finished by 4:00. Homeowner drove in @ 5:30. .....when I say drove in ...he started using his garage with no issues with the surface. Why would I use anything else with performance like that?

al caserta's picture
al caserta
Nice work!! But can you

Nice work!! But can you achieve the same kind of marbleling affect that you can with an epoxy coat underneath? Just wondering and if so how difficult is it apply?

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
As I have stated many times

As I have stated many times before, NOT all polyaspartics are created/formulated equal as to physical properties or return to service time (as to hours/days), or for that matter how long it takes to achieve maximum degree of hardness & wear/abrasion resistance).  There are some polyaspartics  that are more of a hybrid technology (a modified aliphatic urethane having some polyaspartic properties; one indication being that they might dry in 1 hour but should not be returned to service for 10 to 12 hours light foot traffice use up to 2-5 days for vehicle traffic) , alternative being Flexmar (as Dr. J stated) that dry in one hour returning to full service say day(  As for PAP's in general (but again depends on formulations, read and compare technical data/physical properties bulletins of manufcturers) they provide the maximum in wear/abrasion and heat resistance (important factor in deterring hot tire pickup that is common with some other types of sealers primarily being acrylics and some epoxies).  

tonytwomey
Concrete sealing

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jwf
Polyaspartic

Please don't ask why lol ,but I had a job that I used 4 deferent polyaspartics on and I know for sure that not all are the same and that some will make life miserable.

jwf
Polyaspartic

Please don't ask why lol ,but I had a job that I used 4 deferent polyaspartics on and I know for sure that not all are the same and that some will make life miserable.

Dr J's picture
Dr J
marbling

Flexmar manufactures Variegate which mottles and mimics acid stains. Real cool....I will not acid stain anymore since this came out. It opens up so many colour schemes etc. Layering colours really adds to the artistic results. Haven't asked Jack or Lindy if they can be metallisized with metallic powders but I wouldn't be scared to try some sample boards.... I've mixed colours to get what I want with no issues.

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
This particular application

This particular application at Cactus Jacks puts the "spotlight" on the creative multi-demintional effects that can be accomplished in recoard/rapid turn around time using Flexmar's polyaspartics (pigmented PAP base color, Variegate PAP stain, with a final coat of clear) ... all in 1 day, included returninng ti to service/use when the "Dr (Dr J that is) in in the house or commercial business!"

As for adding of fine metallic pigments (such as those incorporated in 100% solids epoxy that have that 3D like illusional movement) ... I know of a few contractors that are doing so ... the trick seems to be 1st apply 1 coat of PAP (sealing the concrete off, sort of as a primer coat) ... next mixing the metallic in with the polyaspartic, applying it at about 8 mils or so (fluid enough to move it around as you would with Epoxy), doing so quick enough to be able to do so within windor of time. When done, final coat of clear.  IMO, not based on my actual testing as of yet, if the coat containing the fine metallics were the High Solids (HS) Flemxar formulation, instead of the standard one, the mil build is higher (ergo, the HS may be better option for aading the fine metallics into).

LegacyIndustrial's picture
LegacyIndustrial
OP

OP:

Yes, having the system entirely PAP gives the user service the following day for cars.

When you put PAP over epoxy, you still have to live by the epoxy cure rates which is 5-7 days for cars (material dependent)

Our installers use PAP for "PAP only"  jobs, usually full chip or a commercial job that needs to be completely ready for service the next day. 

 

I would be interested in this Variegate product that replaces acid-stain.

Lindy/Dr. J, any contacts at Flexmar?

 

Also...

Here is our short video depicting a one day garage floor (chip-floor) as Dr. J pictured above.

 

http://youtu.be/erl_vCnoiZY

Lindy A.'s picture
Lindy A.
Assuming you are Scotty ...

Assuming you are Scotty ... if you want to talk about this give me a call on my cell phone 254-498-6635 or drop an email message.

britelight
My guess is you put the pap

My guess is you put the pap on too thick using the magic trowel. I only use the magic trowel with high solids pap.

and the trowel puts it down at about  0.010 "  or 10 mils as they say.

I have put down Flexmar pap at 40F with no problems. I know other paps when put on thick take Forever to dry.

and I dont know what other paps will do in colder temps. I always contact Mark at Central U.S. coatings  (flexmar

distributor/applicator) to make sure I am in the operating range of the product if I think i may be pushing it. 

xscash's picture
xscash
rollers?

hey guys, been quite a while since I have been here. Had some free time and thought I would see whats new.

Installing PAP can be very rewarding when you get it right. I have finished many floors and tops in a multitude of differnt manners and I find my first coat works the best with a push broom and tons of pressure. I crush the fibers and material into the floor creating a super thin layer that is very translucent. Really hides the lines and flows the product to create a flawless acid stain look. I have been tempted in the past to shoot a how-to video but never followed through. I guess I just thought of myself as an average installer. every time I used a roller it was a gamble on air entrapment. I have never had this issue with a broom. my top coat was with a pad co if I needed the weight or for lighter weight an 18" roller that I shot a screw through the end so it wouldnt spin. worked great.

XS

britelight
As far as Legacy video. I

As far as Legacy video. I find that if I do not put down a base coat the chips absorb the poly and I can see the

grey concrete below.  I use a flat squegee to put down the top coat. Goes on perfect with no roller marks. I use

an 85% poly and I put down one coat only. Using the squegee the floor takes what it needs.